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August 21st | CONSCIOUS UNCOUPLING: NO GUILT, PEACEFUL DIVORCE

Episode-Banner_06When the media storm over the breakup of actress Gwyneth Paltrow and husband Chris Martin of the rock band Coldplay blew over back in 2014, what stuck in people’s minds was a phrase the two performers used to describe their separation: a harmonious and mutual conscious uncoupling. The phrase entered Wikipedia and our relationship vocabularies almost overnight. In answer to the many questions Rick’s followers have asked about the concept of conscious uncoupling, Rick devotes this episode to a discussion on what it’s all about … how to take the shame and blame out of the divorce experience and accept its benefits and gifts. Rick talks about how we can take the guilt out of separation and accept that there’s nothing wrong in deciding that the relationship should end. And listen in as callers share with Rick how they’ve learned to take personal responsibility for their actions, make mutual peace, and construct loving relationships with their former partners.


Show Transcript

[Start] [0:00:22]

Segment 1

Rick: Good morning everybody! And welcome to Divorce Talk Radio. I’m pretty excited. I am actually not in the studio this morning. I’m in New York City having spent the weekend up here. And I got to tell you, it has been hot in New York. It hasn’t had all the rain that we’ve been getting down here in Houston. So it has been a great trip, seen a couple of shows, went and saw the Book of Mormon.

And for those of you that have been following the show, you know that I’ve been looking for to seeing Hamilton. And sure enough, I saw it last night and it was pretty darn good. I’m not going to sing any of the songs and hopefully I don’t hum anything but it was incredible. It was incredible show. So if you ever get a chance to see it, I know it’s playing in Chicago too, I’m not plugging it. I’m not getting any additional compensation to talk about Hamilton. But if you get a chance to see the show especially with your kids, I would definitely go.

But tell you what has been on my mind. Two years ago almost to the day, a media storm erupted when Gwyneth Paltrow announced that her and her husband, front man from Coldplay, Chris Martin, were separating. And they described their separation as a harmonious and mutual conscious uncoupling. And you might have remembered that word, conscious uncoupling, because it sort of entered the Wikipedia world and entered our vocabulary almost overnight. And I can’t tell you how many calls that I received shortly after that getting sort of my take on it, seeing if I could talk about it and provide a little bit more umbrella as to what it’s all about.

And in reality, it has sort of been around for a while, this whole thing called conscious coupling. Back in 2001 in fact, I read a book called the Spiritual Divorce by an author named Debbie Ford and it’s really at the end of the day no different. And I think at the end of the day, what it’s about is to take the right and the wrong and the good and the bad out of this divorce experience that you’ve been going through and try and get the benefits and the gifts associated with the situation you find yourself in.

And that’s what I want to talk about today. We’re of course here at KPRC 950. And our number, if you’d like to call in and share an experience. Maybe you’ve gone through a conscious uncoupling or you’re going through a less chaotic type of a divorce, you could call us at 713-212-5950. You can also catch us on our podcast, KPRCRadio.com and listen online.

This whole thing about conscious uncoupling reminds of a lecture I listened to years back by another author that I like named Caroline Myss. And she wrote a book called Sacred Contracts. And essentially what she said is that when we meet somebody new, we get this feeling and this energy and almost this tingling in our body and we realized whether it’s going to be a lover or a friend. We know that we’re going to make a sacred contract with that person, an agreement to be in relationship with them for who knows how long. And that’s the thing. We don’t know long we’re going to be with someone.

And she goes on to say that you also get that same feeling in your body when you know the relationship is about to be over. And I think that’s a relatively simple take on conscious uncoupling. When you know it’s over, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that you made it this far in your relationship and it’s time to move on to something different.

I’ve got a caller from Austin on line 1. Mike, are you there?

Mike: Yeah, I’m here. Hey, Rick.

Rick: Hey, thanks. Thanks for calling the show this morning and I’m all the way up here in New York City. And what’s on your mind?

Mike: I really appreciate this topic. I have been through a situation like that myself quite a few years ago that really changed the whole direction of my life and the way I approach relationships after that. Without going into too much detail, I was in a relationship with a woman for about three years and we were looking at, talking about and I was considering getting married. And as we get closer to that experience, I started to feel it in my gut that something wasn’t right.

Rick: Yeah. When you – let’s talk more about that because I think that that something that people often overlook. When you got that experience in your gut, I mean I guess if you look back on it right now, Mike, is there any reason that you decided not to trust your gut in that moment and kind of move in a different direction?

Mike: Yeah. I considered a lot of reasons because I was kind of going into inner transformation at that time and kind of trying to figure out relationship, who I was and what I was doing. But I just had a sense at that moment, I was aware that that I was very uncomfortable with some of her behaviors. She liked to drink alcohol a lot more than I did. And as I got to know her and spent more time moving towards like a living together situation and being together a lot more, it started to become a much bigger problem.

And I was doubting myself whether or not it was me, if it was – if that was a part of her, I was judging her and judging myself whether or not she was a standup person and had a good, I don’t know what the word would be, it’s like a good ability to take care of herself, competency, stuff like that. And at some point, I just couldn’t deny my inner gut anymore and I chose to get out of the relationship.

But I really loved her and we had a – for most of our relationship was very good. She just liked to drink and drink to excess and that’s not my lifestyle and I had a problem with that. And at some point, I realized that I just couldn’t be in the kind of the form of a relationship that we were considering which would be marriage or a partnership, I just didn’t want that in my life.

Rick: For sure. Were you able to sort of disengage and break this relationship up without the traditional shame and blame that goes along with so many other relationships?

Mike: Well, I can’t say I did that in the beginning. I probably went through a lot of shaming and judgment of her and judgment of myself. But it was kind of more of a process because at that time, I was just starting to look at myself and what my role was in this relationship that I was in. I was doing some therapy. She was actually in therapy and got me into therapy. I was reluctant at first but once I started doing that and doing some more personal inner growth work, I started to kind of realize what my part was and that it wasn’t about her. It wasn’t she was doing something wrong. It was her life choice and what she wanted to do.

And I realized that shaming and blaming was really only hurting me. I had loved for and I was hurt and angry at one point because it wasn’t going the way I wanted it to go. It wasn’t – she was – I was blaming her for breaking up my fantasy basically. I had an idea. I think we all have these ideas and dreams about how we want our relationships or our marriages to go.

Rick: Sure.

Mike: And then when they don’t go that way, we or I at the time was really wanting to make it her fault. She drinks too much. She is not healthy or whatever.

Rick: Yeah. And that has got to be tough for you too because when someone chooses to drink to excess and if she was abusing alcohol then you don’t really ever know what version of her you’re getting from day to day.

Mike: That’s true. I never really knew what to expect. Usually, she was cherry and fun and happy and then there were times where it was just kind of a disaster. And she wasn’t really present for the relationship. And what it kind of came down to and I was realizing that she was more committed to her drinking lifestyle and not been committed to our relationship. And it wasn’t right for me to ask her to be any different really. It’s not really – it wasn’t my place.

I stood on my righteousness for quite a while thinking it was but [0:09:40] [Indiscernible] it’s her choice. That’s her life. She can do what she wants to do. It just wasn’t meeting the form that I had in my mind. I wanted to change her and get her to be different and conform to the way I thought the relationship should look but in the end, I realized that that’s not right and that’s not my job and it was my fantasy.

And I think that’s one of the most painful things about breakups is not necessarily the loss of the relationship but the loss of the fantasy. That’s for me I think is one of the most painful experiences any of us can go through. It’s a death of our dream.

Rick: There’s no doubt about that. If you’re just tuning in, this is Rick Goldberg. I’m visiting with Mike who is sharing his relationship and how he moved through it in somewhat of an unconscious coupling type of way. We’re going to head to a break here, Mike. You want to stick around after the break and share a little bit more about your story and how it came to be, maybe where it is now.

Mike: Sure. That would be good.

Rick: Sounds good. We’ll see you right after this break.

[End] [0:10:58]


[Start] [0:14:31]

Segment 2

Rick: Welcome back everybody. You’re listening to Divorce Talk Radio here at 950 KPRC. I’m Rick Goldberg. I’m your host. I just want to remind you that if you miss a minute of our show, you can catch up with it on our podcast which is online at KPRCRadio.com.

When I went back through my divorce a number of years ago, I tried to go through it in a spiritual conscious uncoupling type of way myself. And I know some of the things that I tried to stay super mindful of was instead of shaming or blaming my ex, I wanted to do everything that I could to take a hundred percent self-responsibility for all of my actions. And a lot of my actions were not that pretty. Instead of seeking any kind of retaliation or revenge for any of the tit for tat that would go on, I tried to just simply forgive myself and forgive her along the way.

So, there are a lot of kinds of things that you can do from an unconscious uncoupling type of a way. We’re back with Mike who if you are tuning into our first segment was joining us. And Mike, you’re still with us, right?

Mike: I’m still here.

Rick: So, where did you get to within your relationship? And really, what I’m looking for is what was the big growth and maybe learning for you having gone through that situation and then coming out of it?

Mike: I would say probably the biggest thing that I learned was that I needed to be – I needed to find my most loving part of myself that could love her and love me.

Rick: And how did you do that?

Mike: Well, I heard a lot of people tell me that’s what I needed to do for a while. Of course, it wasn’t really that easy to figure out on my own. What I really – I guess for me, it was learn how to take care of myself and to see myself as being OK and to see her as OK being the way she is. And she is a creation of the universal god or whatever you want to call, that that’s who she is and that’s who everyone is. We should all – we should love people for as they are, not what we think they should be or how we want them to be.

Rick: Did you ever – because what resonates for me, did you ever put pressure on yourself that like for some reason maybe you should have been able to have fixed her? You should have been able to get her over the hurdle of her alcohol abuse. Did any of that kind of resonate for you and did you have to let that go?

Mike: I definitely was trying to do that. I was trying to fix her and get her to quit and get her to be more healthy. But I was really trying to do that I think just to make myself more comfortable in the relationship. I was trying to control it so I would be OK. I had to come to peace with myself and peace with the fact that it wasn’t going to be that way. And that like I was saying earlier that I found that I just needed to really love her for who she is and let her be who she is and do what she does.

And for me, that brought me a lot of peace. That brought a lot of inner calm whereas before I wasn’t. I was scared and discontent and angry and resentful and all the stuff going on. And then I finally got to a place that I realized that if I can just love her and then I’ll feel good. And that’s really what I was ultimately wanting to feel at peace and to feel good. And once I figured out how to do that, I kept trying to keep that in the forefront of my consciousness of staying in that place and not trying to change the situation.

Rick: Well Mike, let me ask you. While we were on break, my producer told me that while she was talking to you, she discovered that you wrote a book kind of summarizing and summing up a lot of your experiences and kind of what, is it somewhat of a how-to guide of how to be in the kind of relationship that you’ve always wanted to be in? Give me a better feel. I haven’t read your book. But give us a feel and tell our listeners maybe a little bit about the book and maybe even where they can get it.

Mike: The name of the book is The Spiritual Prescription for Transforming Relationships and it’s on Amazon. The reason I wrote this book was years after this relationship, I spent a lot of time trying to learn how to have a more peaceful and loving relationships. And I didn’t find a lot of books out there that were really giving me what I was needing which was a greater understanding of how to love and how to overcome all of the social societal programming that we did on how our relationships and marriages are supposed to be and how we’re supposed to be upset because of what somebody else does or says and kind of making our own sense of wellness and happiness tied to what somebody else is doing.

So, this book is really a lot about how that is, kind of how it takes your power back, how to overcome the programming that we have on the way we’re supposed to think and supposed to be in our relationships and the way that we have love and find more peace.

Rick: Well, if there’s one thing I’ve learned from our listeners and from the clients that I work with, people like formulas for how to do things especially in a transformative growth type of ways. So is there like a little step by step formula that maybe you put together for how to take your power back?

Mike: One of the things I came up with that I found was really important was how to be – what we’re talking about before, how to be self-loving and what that really means. And one of the four steps that I came up with to be more self-loving, number one is putting yourself first. And I don’t mean by self like small self, small self but like your higher self, your loving soulful self.

And what really speaks to your heart and what is it that you’re – what you really need to do is take care of yourself. It’s not about excluding other people and taking advantage of other people. It’s about what that loving part of yourself really means and going with that and doing that. If that part of yourself is telling you to take a break from relationship or – it’s listening to your gut basically.

Rick: I got you. Before you go on to the next two points, let me just remind our listeners who are just tuning in that they are listening to Divorce Talk Radio here at 950 KPRC. We’re talking about conscious uncoupling or what a spiritual divorce without a lot of chaos and drama might look like. The show can be downloaded at the KPRCRadio.com on our podcast. Go to Media Podcast. Look for Divorce Talk. Click on Rick Goldberg and you’ll have it.

And of course, we’re coming at you every Sunday morning at 8:00 o’clock. Today’s show in fact is coming at you from New York City. So, my producer makes me do that, Mike.

Mike: OK.

Rick: So let me get back to you now. Let me hear the second, third and fourth steps.

Mike: OK. So number one is putting your higher self first. Number two is saying no to what you don’t want. And I think that’s a really tough one for a lot of people because we don’t want to hurt somebody else’s feelings we don’t want to say yes to people. But a lot of times, we get ourselves in trouble by saying yes. So really being able to say no in certain situations and certain people and certain things in your life will give you a lot of power back.

The third step is asking for what you want. Now, I find that this is a really hard one in relationships is we don’t often do it because we’re afraid to be rejected. And our partners and our friends and family really need to hear what it is what we want even small things because they can’t read our mind and they really need the information. How are they going to give us what we want if they don’t know what it is we want? So that’s a really big one.

Rick: I know. I know. I personally know that I can’t read anybody’s mind but for years, I’ve always felt like people should be able to read my mind. I don’t understand why that is sometimes.

Mike: I know. And we think that if they really love us then they know what we want or what we need to be happy and feel loved.

Rick: Totally. They got to do their research, right?

Mike: Yes.

Rick: So we got a couple of minutes left in this segment. So, if you could get to the last point and summarize it and take it home for us.

Mike: OK. So point number four, saying yes to the gifts and blessings that show up in your life. And that can be a small thing like yesterday, I saw a guy who was struggling loading up his truck at Home Depot and I asked him if he wanted some help loading that load into his truck. And he is an old man and he said, “No, no. I got it. I got it.” Well, he clearly didn’t have it and he did need some help. But he said no to the help.

So I think that’s a good example of how we don’t say yes when people show up in our lives where they have something to offer for us whether it’s an event or a person. We really need to start saying yes to the good things that show up in our lives and make those connections. I could have made a connection with that man at Home Depot and we could have been friends and it would have taken me two seconds, literally not more than 30 seconds to help him load his thing. But instead, he went his separate way and he struggled.

Rick: Well Mike, before we get to the end of the segment, why don’t you say the name of your book one more time so our listeners can hear what your last name is too so that they can look you up and see what you got out there?

Mike: OK. Thanks. My name is Mike Biles. The book is The Spiritual Prescription for Transforming Relationships. The Enlightened Way To Love, Peace & Connection. And it can be found on Amazon. And I just released so I have a special out there for people. It’s $19.99 printed version but if you download it right now, it’s only 99 cents. It would not last. We just try and get it out there and get the word out to people.

Rick: Sounds great. Well, I have absolutely no problem plugging your book for you. And I really appreciate you coming on the show this morning and sharing from your heart and from such a deep place. We’re here at KPRC 950. It’s Divorce Talk Radio. We’re talking about divorce. We’re at a halfway mark. We’ll see you right after the break.

[End] [0:25:30]


[Start] [0:28:56]

Segment 3

Rick: Welcome back everybody to the second half of our show. This is Rick Goldberg. We’re on Divorce Talk Radio KPRC 950. We usually tape our show in our studio in Houston, Texas. But this weekend, we’re taping in New York City. So I’m working hand in hand with Ramon. It’s the first time we’ve done this and I think it’s working out pretty cool. I don’t know if Ramon can chime in from your booth but it’s going pretty good, huh, so far? All right. I got a text saying thumbs-up. It’s going good. I guess he can’t really say anything.

We’ve been talking about conscious uncoupling a couple of years ago. Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin, they exploded that concept into the Wiki sphere. And people are trying to do it but it’s still not the easiest thing to be able to do. To use the divorce, the heal your wounds and to learn to grow and to develop yourself into a more loving, conscious, and liberated person, that is just like so challenging for so many people even people who are awake. And so rather than staying stuck in the pain of a broken heart, conscious uncoupling, it attempts to reconnect us and really try and bring you into the highest aspects of yourself.

We got another caller who has called in, Walt, calling from Austin, Texas. Walk, are you with us?

Walt: Hello, Rick.

Rick: Hey, buddy. How are you?

Walt: I’m good. You?

Rick: I’m doing really good. Thank you. I’m missing Texas but I’m really having a good time up here in New York.

Walt: Yeah.

Rick: So Walt, if you’ve been listening to the show this morning, you kind of know we’re talking about divorce and conscious uncoupling and do you have a story to share?

Walt: Yes. I’ve been divorced twice, Rick. And the first time, I was deathly unconscious. We both were and it was a mess. And I believe – I just was not – we worked hard with all the things that we had going on in our lives. So the relationship we had was not one where we check on a daily, weekly basis what’s going on, what are the hurts here, what’s working and what’s not working. And so when it came time for the divorce, we worked everything out, all the bad out came through, the lawyers, and the fight. It was like all that avoiding that we did in relationship or that idea, it all came to surface and it was just like a volcano.

And of course, the lawyers, they didn’t help. I had hired a lawyer to – he say, “Well, OK. Well, we’re going to go right after.” And in the inquisition, he asked her questions, personal questions and stuff that were really – they’re personal and they didn’t need to be asked. And then her deposition of me was the same and attacking all my vulnerable spots that she knew about that he had gotten out of her. So it was just ugly.

Rick: Yeah.

Walt: And I ended up firing my lawyer because it was so abusive and probably did the wrong thing financially and all that as far as going through a divorce that it seems like the system was set up back then, this is in ’86, ’87 that it was just controversial and the whole system fed off of it. And I would recommend anybody going through a divorce courtroom by him or herself, bring a friend, bring a family member. And then the kids, they don’t have access to what’s going on. They don’t know what’s happening.

Rick: So it sounds like that your first divorce, you were unconscious and you went through the typical system. And my hunch and maybe for the reason for your call is that you did it maybe a little bit differently on your second divorce.

Walt: Yes.

Rick: So tell us about that.

Walt: My second divorce happened about four years ago now. And what happened, my wife and I, we were really close and we always work hard in what was going on in our relationship. And actually, she got cancer and in that, she had realized that her life could possibly be almost over and she had never been alone in her life. She had always been in a relationship and she wanted to do her alone time where I was just the opposite. After my first divorce, I was alone for 12 years and did some solo time for 7.

Rick: So she discovered that she had cancer and then she came to you and disclosed that and then said, “And I want to sort of take care of this journey by myself.” Is that – am I hearing you right?

Walt: Well, she found out she had cancer. We both found out the same day. I was with her.

Rick: OK.

Walt: What she had done and what I had said, “Your body is saying I’d rather be – I’d rather leave the planet than be in another relationship.” That’s basically what I heard and we spoke about. We talked about these things. Then she needed to do her alone time and wanted to go see this [0:35:08] [Indiscernible] by herself. I had been through several myself. And so I didn’t like that we were divorcing. We love each other. We love each other and we held hands in divorce court. But it was …

Rick: Now, say that again because if I just heard what I think you heard, I don’t think – I think that’s unprecedented. Tell our listeners what you just said one more time.

Walt: Well, when it came time to finally break up, she was busy dealing with her cancer, closing her career down at school and everything. So I handled the paperwork. Her friend helped with that and got everything ready. And then we could just sign everything and send it in but I asked her, I said, “You know, come down with me. Let’s make a ceremony out of it. We had a ceremony when we get married.”

And so, we went down together and went into court. And I believe she had already had some treatment and her hair was gone and she looked beautiful in her scarf and we sat on the beach together and held hands until it was our turn. And then we went up together.

Rick: Wow!

Walt: The judge could see how much we were still in love.

Walt: That’s incredible. That’s such a great story. Last week, I think it was Wednesday, I was in court most of the morning waiting for a hearing and there were probably 12 to 14 other couples that were waiting to be heard before it was our turn. And I could just see the tension and the animosity and really the hatred for one another. Nobody was sitting next to each. Let alone, holding hands with each other.

So the fact that you all could do that, that’s incredible. So, where are you and what’s your lady’s name?

Walt: Joanna.

Rick: Joanna. Where are you all today? We got a couple of minutes before we’re going to wrap up the segment.

Walt: Where we are today actually, Joanna has had several surgeries and stuff and we – we’re back together actually.

Rick Get out! It’s awesome.

Walt: We got back together. We’re not going to do any paperwork and get married but we have gone through this journey called life. Rick, I think that feeling that you’re talking about, the people I just realized in the courtrooms, all that energy, opposing energy, I remember working with a woman one time and she was so angry at her ex and she just could not – everything was about him negative and very energetic. And finally, I look at her and I said, “Ma’am, you must really loved him.” And she just stopped in her track and cried and all that energy came out. Love is what fuels the whole thing. It’s even fueling the pain.

And so what happened when I had to go through in the three years that Joanna and I were apart and divorced which was I had to go through all my abandonment issues again and fuel that. But what I found out was love comes through me and if I’m damning it up with resentment and stuff like that, I’m the one that hurts. It just got too painful. It gets too painful after a while. And so, it’s about switching it and really realizing that, “Oh, I love that person. I invested a lot. I love that person.” And then feel the loss and go with that that it all comes through us individually.

And so we are each loved and it’s who do we choose to give this love to. I love and who do I choose to give it to today?

Rick: Yeah. Those are just beautiful, beautiful words of wisdom. And really, I’m just so grateful that you called in and shared this morning, Walt. And I really wish you and Joanna just the best down the road. Very few times I’ve met anyone who has been able to have that kind of connection with their ex and stay connected, help her through her medical illness and then come out on the other side with so much love and joy. And I can just hear it in your voice how much you love this woman. So, thanks again for calling.

And for those of you that are listening, stick around. We’re going to come up to our final segment and we’re going to talk about the laws of choice and the laws of forgiveness. So stay tuned when we get back from the other side.

[End] [0:40:14]


[Start] [0:43:42]

Segment 4

Rick: Good morning, everybody. And welcome back to our final chapter of this Sunday’s Divorce Talk Radio. I’m Rick Goldberg and I have had a great, great show. We’re up here in New York City recording our show this morning. And that’s a really interesting song. I just heard that song a little bit differently. I always used to hear the translation of that. If you can’t be with the one you love then you should probably just be content and love the one you’re with. I always thought that meant just love the partner that you’re currently with and just kind of get over it and deal with it.

And I think from some of the calls that I’ve had this morning and the inspiration that has come through, I think what it’s saying, if you can’t be with the one you love then the one you’re with is really yourself. Love the one you’re with. I think that’s probably for me this new takeaway that I’ve got from that song. Pretty interesting.

We’re here on KPRC 950. If you’d like to call us and share a story about a divorce you might be going through or one that you’ve gone through, you could certainly call us here at 713-212-5950.

I know one of the more important laws of a spiritual unconscious coupling divorce is to get connected with the law of forgiveness. And forgiveness essentially allows you to break all the cords that keep you tied to the past. Not only forgiving the person that you’ve been with but really more importantly, forgiving yourself. And so, that’s a really important topic and that’s where – if you can do that, that’s where resentment can fall by the wayside, anger and so many other things that just kind of hold us back.

I’ve got Suzy on line 3 calling in. Suzy, thanks for calling the show this morning.

Suzy: My pleasure. Hi.

Rick: Hey. So, what’s cooking? What’s on your mind this morning?

Suzy: Well, I’m just really resonating with that last caller who was talking about that he [0:46:01] [Indiscernible] love and find himself he’s the one that’s hurt. And I’m going through a divorce right now and really have been just working with – making peace with the situation and forgiveness is a big part of it and I really try to resonate and work with the concept of conscious uncoupling because I think it’s a powerful calling. We know to try to step up and be at our highest level when we go through these kinds of experiences.

Rick: Yeah. What has been the most challenging part for you to go through this divorce in a conscious uncoupling sort of way?

Suzy: Well, it’s funny because I was literally packing to move and we’ve been pretty much with the idea that we were going to be splitting up. But a month – six weeks before I was going to move out, I discovered he’d been having an affair for eight months.

Rick: Oh wow!

Suzy: And it was funny because the sex part didn’t bother me at all. I knew that we were splitting so that wasn’t a thing. But there was such a breach for me in the integrity that I felt we would always have together.

Rick: Yeah. So when you discovered that, did you discover it yourself or did he come share it with you?

Suzy: I discovered it myself.

Rick: And so, how did you handle it?

Suzy: I was pretty enraged because there has been so much actual contact created for us to even have a conversation with one or the other but met someone during the time where we were splitting. And just to give a little background, it was because of my 18-year-old stepson. I really wanted to stay and be with him until he left for college. So, it’s kind of an unusual situation. We’ve been living platonically for about the last year and we had talked about of not getting his needs met and what that meant and really bringing it into the relationship if anyone started to have feelings for someone else.

So it was a strange kind of a betrayal because it really wasn’t about the breach sexually. It was about the breach of not bringing it to me and being transparent with me as we had discussed being. So I went through a lot of anger with that one but in a way, it didn’t surprise me that I would have attract betrayal because staying in the marriage as long as I did was a betrayal of myself. So I almost got that I would be a match to that kind of energy.

Rick: That’s really insightful is to see how that betrayal really reflected back on the inner betrayal of you wanting to stay in a relationship that you knew just really wasn’t serving you. Well, so I – one of the things I heard was that you stayed in the relationship really because of your stepson. Is that why you feel like you stayed as long as you did?

Suzy: Hundred percent, yeah.

Rick: And now that you’ve been or that you’re going through the divorce, how has he been with things? And do you find – are you hopeful that you’re still going to have a real solid relationship with him moving forward?

Suzy: Yeah. We’re solid now. I mean it was really just disruptive because his father told him about the affair. And so, he was upset about his father’s behavior but that’s his dad. So of course, he wanted to align with his father. So, he was a little rough on me for a few weeks and he was confused by the concept that I stayed for him. And we had a lot of really good discussions about it and even now looking on it, I think gosh, I made that choice for him but was that kind of a martyring position to say we’re affected by it myself and mind this because what’s most important to me was to see him through his high school years.

So, it is in the choices that we make and the prices that way for various choices. But he is a great young man and really able to deepen in conversation and so we were able to do a lot of healing before I left and we’re very close. We’ve always been very close. And I was afraid that might change but it hasn’t. It continues.

Rick: So if everything happens for a reason and you obviously were brought together with this man for a reason for seven to eight years, what’s the big gift for you as a result of being in this relationship?

Suzy: The big gift was Gabriel, my stepson. I didn’t choose to have children. And it was such a heart-opening experience to have this young boy in my life that I just open my heart in ways I never had experienced before. And that really was the compelling drive for me was the experience that I was having. I mean I have not lived with a child since my siblings.

So it was a really deep [0:50:56] [Indiscernible] experience and my ex-husband is a loving man. He is a kind man. I think he did what he did because he had been in a lot of pain and I get that. And so, we’re friendly and we talk as it relates to Gabriel versus Tim. And so, there has just been a lot of expansion. We’re really making peace with the trajectory that we were on how are with one another in our growing and evolving. So we have a lot of breathing room now and it’s really a nice experience.

Rick: Take a deep breath and just share if you could right from that heart-centered place what it has been like to be a mom?

Suzy: Well, it has been about sacrifice in some ways, which is a word I always avoided. And so, it grew me up a lot. I mean I’ve really had I guess you could say a very selfish indulgent life. I’ve always been able to do whatever I wanted to do. And so, the notion of doing something for another and not just considering myself whatever revolution for me, and it hasn’t [0:52:05] [Indiscernible] than that. I mean that’s not the defining characteristic of my love for my stepson but it was the heart-opening part because I got to experience more depth in myself than I have before because of that.

Rick: Beautifully put. Well, Suzy, I really want to thank you for calling in to the show this morning and sharing your story. I know I have always said, the reason we do this show is that I think it shares like yours can touch so many other people that are going through similar situations who really just can’t articulate it and they could do a little bit of their own work just by listening to you. So I really appreciate the call and just have a really blessed day and best of luck as you go through the rest of the process.

Suzy: My pleasure. Thanks so much, Rick.

Rick: You got it. Well, this has been a great show. We’re coming up to the end. And I just want you to know that as you go through a divorce, you can choose to work hard and heal yourself at a deepest level or you can choose to really be a victim of like and other people’s problems. In other words, you can choose to choose your divorce or you can let your divorce use you.

And until you seek to find and embrace the gifts of any situation and any problem, it’s going to continue to use you and it will hold you down and it will just really bury you and hold you prisoner. So if you carry around as that open wound, it’s going to follow you wherever you go. And that’s kind of what healing is all about. And the greater purpose of this show is to try and find the gifts in these situations even as tough as they are.

So once again, KPRC 950 Divorce Talk Radio. This is Rick Goldberg. I want to tell everybody thank you again for having listened to your radio. And have a fantastic Sunday. Talk …

[End] [0:54:00]

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